Dream Manifested: Theo Croker on Freedom, Healing, and Sonic Exploration on the Jazz Odyssey

alldaywes: All right, Theo, thanks so much. I'm alldaywes host of the Monday Night Jazz Odyssey here at KUVO in Denver. Just wanted to talk to you. I know you're coming into town for some shows at Dazzle, October 3rd and 4th. You got the late shows, the early shows, the late shows, you got four shows, so super excited for that. And you also have your new album out right now, Dream Manifest. So wanted to talk. What was it like to produce that new album along with collaborators like D'LEAU, Kassa Overall, and Elite?

Theo Croker: This album was fun because I did it all in 17 days, 17 days straight. And I made two albums, which I usually do. One album was completely free jazz, which just happened in the middle of a take. The focus wasn't there. I was like, man, just play whatever. And we did, and we played for about 50 minutes, a bunch of just free stuff. And I used that to get out of my record deal with Sony.

alldaywes: Oh, okay.

Theo Croker: I was like, here's the next album. And they were like, nah, we'll let you go if this is what you want to do. I was like, great. And then I was able to do Dream Manifest more independently, the way I wanted. But it was fun, man. I didn't have a lot of songs written. I had some ideas in my notebook. I had some ideas from the demos on the computer, little ideas, but that's about it. So this was the first time I ever went to a studio to make an album and just didn't know what I was going to make.

alldaywes: Wow. Just walking in, I heard you were kind of letting some stuff play, kind of catching a vibe, maybe like, okay, this is when we'll record. Everybody's just kind of feeling it out.

Theo Croker: Well, what I would do is I would have us play because there were new ideas. It was my road band, so we could make music out of anything at that time. And we had just came off a long tour, so I would play something over and over again for a long time until it settled into that energy that you would get from playing live. So 20 minutes into a song, 15 minutes into a song, it would really start to click and tighten up, and that we would use that part of the take. So we would play the whole song, start to finish, with solos and everything. And then on the outro, I would start playing the intro, and we'd go back into it again and stuff like that. And that's really why there's only one take of the things, because it's just that was the way to capture that live energy, but also a way to keep it on, I guess it's a middle ground between keeping it pure, the first take, and that vibe and capturing the first time everybody's playing it. That first natural reaction is usually the coolest to me, because you don't know what's coming next, and you're not overthinking it. You're not thinking, oh, I need to play this part, or, oh, let me play this way. You're not able to mess with it at all. You're just kind, you're going with it. So I really wanted that type of energy.

alldaywes: Wow. And I know you got the Deluxe edition coming out on the 24th of October. Talk about those five songs that we're going to get. And I love that you linked up with IDK for "My Friend".

Theo Croker: So the deluxe songs are all songs that just kind of didn't make it over the finish line in time, or were just a little, just more edgy. And the way we're forced to release music nowadays with the digital platforms and everything, you only get three or four shots at songs getting placed and playlisted and presented.

alldaywes: So true.

Theo Croker: Then the whole album has to come out, so you got these other songs that just get burned in the process. So I was like, man, let's just save these for another time. And a way to extend to get more out of putting out the album and the deluxe edition, the Five tracks really allow me to just not worry about the overall project to go harder with the sonics of it. To have somebody like IDK and Theopolis London, who's a great singer and rapper, Nosaj Thing, who's a great producer, give me a chance to utilize some of those other collaborations without it having the pressure of it being a part of the full album, and it was going to give this song attention or that song attention. And it's like, no, we split it up. Here's the extra stuff. So because I didn't want that stuff to carry over to the next project, I want to get it all out

alldaywes: Kind, not letting anything hang loose, just let it all out. Might as well keep it all. Yeah, all together.

Theo Croker: Let it all out.

alldaywes: That's awesome.

Theo Croker: I recorded this album in 2022.

alldaywes: Oh, really?

Theo Croker: And when I say we did it all in 17 days, we started with nothing and ended with the mixes, and it was done,

alldaywes: Including the deluxe tracks? all of it?

Theo Croker: No, the deluxe track I updated with, because I was changing bands at the time too. That was kind of the end of one Quartet. So now I have the people that you'll see in Denver, or the drummer and that keyboard player, they're now in the band. So I actually went back and replaced things with them.

alldaywes: Gotcha. Well, you just announced the tour starting in Denver with a bunch of shows and then going overseas for a bunch of shows. And then I know you're coming back, and then you're playing Blue Note in LA for a run as well, which

Theo Croker: Blue Note in LA

alldaywes: Yeah. Good idea to acclimate yourself here, starting in the Mile High. That's a good call. And then what does this tour mean to you right now at this point in your career?

Theo Croker: Oh, man, that's a good question. I'm very blessed to where, especially with Europe, I go to Europe four or five times a year. It is normal. I was there in March. I was there in April. I was there in the end of May into June. I was there in July.

alldaywes: One of our host was like, he's always in France!

Theo Croker: Yeah, man. I mean, so for me, it's kind of routine. This is my normal fall tour time, but I'm liking the fact that it is growing in the States, and I'm able to play in the States more; it's a tough market.

alldaywes: Yeah. Well, we're super excited to have you here in Denver. Welcome you back. You were kind of saying before we talked, you haven't really played here since college, so we're excited to have you back.

Theo Croker: Yeah, like 20 years.

alldaywes: Yeah, that's amazing. So I wanted to talk a little bit about, I was reading your Downbeat article, and you were talking about how, before you were doing those recording sessions for the album, your mother experienced a psychotic episode. And so when you and your brother brought her into the studio after that, and you were kind of able to feel her become grounded, what do you think, well, first of all, what was going through your mind as both the son and an artist when that happened? And then what do you think the studio environment led to the music itself that allowed her to feel that grounding? I think it's kind of you talking about how music is a healing power.

Theo Croker: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, first of all, as a son, I thought, man, I need to finish this album and take care of my mom.

alldaywes: Of course.

Theo Croker: Finish this album so I can take care of my mom. I need to take some time off, which I did as much as I could. That's why the album has just come out this year, not early 2023, with the Tiny Desk and all of that kind of thing. Because it, I fell out with Sony at that time, which they didn't know. Nobody knew things were happening with. I'm not somebody that shows up to work like, Hey, I'm having personal trouble. Audiences don't come for that. You know what I mean? I'm supposed to help people escape from their life when we play music and release albums. I learned that that was the most grounding part of that whole time for her and us, because she, her brain, was able to tune into the music and the vibrations of it and having her there as part of the process. She seemed okay during that time. Because it just, I don't know, man, the vibrations, just the way music is in general, but the way it tapped into her mind, it just kind of grounded her. And she was super functional for those two weeks, and it really gave me and my brother a break. We were exhausted from dealing with it in the state of the country and the ending of COVID. It was still COVID times. There was so many, everything was just so up in the air about how to get help and where to get help and and things like that. That was the immediate, that was the first bit of relief we had as far as getting help was concerned was the music itself.

alldaywes: Yeah, that's beautiful. It really is.

Theo Croker: It's really beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. So I don't know, maybe there's a future exploration in that to help other people.

alldaywes: Definitely. That would be really cool.

Theo Croker: Yeah, absolutely.

alldaywes: Kind of taking it back to some of your early parts in your career, talk about your relationship with Dee Dee Bridgewater and how she pushed you to explore the range of your artistry early on.

Theo Croker: Man, Dee Dee, definitely. When I first met Dee Dee in China, I was living in Shanghai, and she was there for a week and she, after the first rehearsal, she asked me to take her around town. And so I had gigs every night, sometimes multiple gigs in the night. And she came to most of them things with fusion bands, things with a salsa band, things with my own. I had an Afrobeat type band. She came back a few months later and offered me a production deal where she would produce a record and then get it signed to a major was the goal, because she was like, you need to be touring and get into the market. You're just over here doing all this stuff in China. Nobody knows about it. And with your legacy and my help or her help, she's like, you can really go all the way with this. You know what I mean? So she came back a few months later and offered me the deal, and I said, Yes, of course. And then she was real adamant when we were planning it, she was like, I thought I was going to go make a quintet record in the studio.

alldaywes: Like a straight ahead?

Theo Croker: Yeah. Some kind of hard bop thing. I mean, that's what I was mostly into, but I had all this other stuff going. She's like, no, I want that Afrobeat band vibe that you had and those arrangements and things like that. She's like, you need to think ahead of the market. And this was in 2010 that we started working together on this. She's like, you need to think of what's next and carve out a piece of what's next. And I think that that Afrobeat project that you have is where it's at. And that was the foundation of the album, AfroPhysicist. All of those arrangements and songs were songs I was already performing in Shanghai with an ensemble that mirrored that instrumentation.

alldaywes: The raw approach to it, and also I think it's in your artistry, is how you're not really boxed into a genre is you kind of totally spread out amongst things, and that's what makes it so special of your sound.

Theo Croker: I mean, I try to, and I feel like it's just me being honest, and the jazz box is a difficult box to be stuck in, and it's a silly box because it's such a wide range of things that they call, it's almost like if I turned in an album with no trumpet on it, you wouldn't call it a jazz album, but once I put trumpet on it, people go, oh, it's jazz. You know what I mean? Because just they can't see it any other way, any other box to put it in. And so Dee Dee really helped me. She taught me how to tour. She took me on the road with her and then took my band. She gave her band notice and brought my band into the situation so that we could work, Promoters saw who I am, and I've been touring ever since then.

alldaywes: Wow. Well, how do you kind of think that that experience shaped you and can be used to maybe even inspire the next generation of artists?

Theo Croker: Well, it really felt like I was on the same path as people that played with Art Blakey and played with Benny Carter and things like that. I was in a group working with a legend, learning how to throw down every night, everywhere in the world, despite how long the travel was or that the luggage was lost or if the sound was bad, or every type of situation, every type of culture you could get into. We got into with Dee Dee, so it really felt like at this point now, I don't know how many years ago that was, maybe that was like 20, oh, that was like 2013 we started touring together. So, almost over 10 years ago. Now, I got people in my band that are in their twenties, so I'm showing them how to do the same thing. And they're great musicians. Idris Frederick on the Keys, and Miguel Marcel Russell on the drums. They're in their twenties and they're great composers. They have great ideas for their music and things like that, and I'm showing them what you got to do to tour, what you got to do to be friends with the promoter, what you got to do to make sure a venue wants to have you back, you know what I mean? How you got to deal with a flight getting canceled the day of a show, all that kind of stuff. And then the main thing we learned from Dee Dee is how to play your heart out every night, no matter what. No matter what, no matter what. So I feel like I'm really paying that forward with them, and a lot more of the next process of my life is going to be that nurturing younger musicians to come in the band for a while and go do their thing. Right. When these guys really start to get it and lock in, I'm going to put 'em out and get somebody else.

alldaywes: So let's talk about the band a little bit. So Theo Croker will be at Dazzle October 3rd and fourth, both the late and early shows on both days. I'm super excited to experience Dream Manifest. So what can the fans expect? Who's playing with you in your band? Kind of go through that.

Theo Croker: Well, you can expect the music from the album, maybe a few things from previous albums, too.

alldaywes: Maybe some Jazz is Dead?

Theo Croker: Jazz is Dead. I kind of put that song to rest, but sometimes it comes out. It can come out. Moments of it, or samples of it.

alldaywes: Are you running samples?

Theo Croker: Yeah, I play a lot. I do a lot of sampling live. So yeah, I might drop the Gary Bartz vocals from Jazz is Dead over something else.

alldaywes: Cool. I love that

Theo Croker: A lot of the songs kind of get molded together and melded together with new stuff when they relate, but it's fun. It's an experience really. I don't make a set list. I don't tell the band what's coming necessarily, and they're used to that. We do have a different bass player on this gig. We got Will Gaines, who lives in Denver, who's a bad dude.

alldaywes: Yes, yes. Very familiar.

Theo Croker: Yeah, he's a bad dude. So I'm excited. I'm excited to have a fresh perspective on the music, on the gig, which is always fun. So it's going to go places I'm not even aware of yet.

alldaywes: That's awesome.

Theo Croker: Yeah, man. We're going to play as much music as possible, and every show we're going to do it different. We might even play some of the same songs, but it will be different every time. So we don't have a set formula for any of the songs, so that would be fun too.

alldaywes: Absolutely love that. Super like the roots of it all, and I'm sure that keeps it fresh for you, kind of being able to meld things into new things that are old things and all over across the board.

Theo Croker: Yep. You have to,

alldaywes: Yeah. Here's a question for you. If you could put your music be the soundtrack of any movie or series, what would you choose?

Theo Croker: I think I would choose that movie, The Fifth Element.

alldaywes: Oh, love that movie

Theo Croker: One of my favorite movies of all time.

alldaywes: That is a great one

Theo Croker: Of my favorite movies of all time. Just a great movie. Just those. And I grew up hearing soundtracks like that, or even Jurassic Park. Not that I don't think this album would fit that, but I guess that was John Williams and Hans Zimmer, and I think who did Fifth Element is Theo Shapiro, maybe Theodore Shapiro or something like that. But that type of modern, but future traditional sound, the way it's modern, traditional futurism. I really feel that way about my music, and I try to make all my albums as cinematic as possible.

alldaywes: Yeah, it totally encapsulates what you're doing, so that's awesome. Here's a question I like to ask people too, is what's on your playlist right now? What are you listening to that's catching your ear?

Theo Croker: Oh man. I'm listening to so much Brazilian music right now. It's not even funny. I have a playlist right here. I could tell you I'm listening to Djavan a lot, Gilberto Gil, Jorge Ben Jor, Eryka Badu's new single with The Alchemist, Madison McFerrin's "Ain't It Nice".

alldaywes: Huge fan of that album.

Theo Croker: Man. That album she doesn't know. But that album every day for me, "Ain't It Nice", gets played multiple times. I think it's one of my most played songs, Renegade by Kent Jamz just came out. I like Tyler's (The Creator) new record. There's an artist named Amaria. I really like what she's doing. I like Maurice Brown's new record. I'm listening to that every day, which is rare that I listen to a trumpet player. But I really, his production and the vibe of, it's so great, KAYTRANADA, I'm listening to, and then I'm really listening to a lot of Brazilian music on top of that. But that's literally, yeah, that's literally what I just saw on my phone.

alldaywes: Man. Great selections, Theo. That's awesome.

Theo Croker: Let's go. Yeah.

alldaywes: Well, thanks so much.

Theo Croker: Thanks for having me

alldaywes: sitting down and talking to us here at Kubo Jazz. We're super excited to have you in Denver, like I said, on October 3rd and 4th, at Dazzle Denver. Thanks again.

Theo Croker: Let's go, and I'll see you there, yeah?

alldaywes: Yes, you will. Yes, you will. Yes.

Theo Croker: Awesome. Look forward to it.

alldaywes: Awesome.